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Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer02 May 2013, 23:29

Bueno, pongo la lista de civs, para tenerla de referencia y su posibles traducción / adjetivo:

Civ - Posible traducción - Posible adjetivo

Amurites - ? - Amurite(s) ?
Archos - ? - Archo(s) ?
Austrin - ? - Austrino(s) ?
Balseraphs - ? - Balseraph(s) ?
Bannor - ? - Bannor(s) ?
Clan de las Ascuas - Adjetivo he puesto orco(s). Clan me parecía feo.
Cualli - ? - Cualli (es) ?
Doviello - ? - Doviello(s) ?
Dural - ? - Dural(es) ?
Elohim - Dioses o divinidades (hebreo) - El / Elohim
Grigori - Vigilantes (hebreo) - Grigori(s) ?
Hamstalfar - Elfos hámster? - Hamstalfar(s) ?
Hippus - Caballos? No pega mucho traducirlo - Hippus / Hippei (Creo que era así)
Illians - ? - Illian(s) ?
Infernales
Khazad - Enanos, o enanos de las montañas? - Su singular creo que era khuzd o khazd no estoy seguro
Kuriotates - ? - Kuriotate(s)
La Legión de D'Tesh - Legionario(s)?
Lanun - Piratas (malayo) - Lanú(es) ?
Ljosalfar - Elfos de la luz (nórdico) - ?
Luchuirp - ? - ni idea de adjetivo
Malakim - Ángeles (hebreo) - Malakh(im)
Mazatl - Ciervos (Nahuatl) - ?
Mechanos - mecano o mecánicos? - mechano(s) ?
Mercurians - Mercurianos? - Mercuariano(s)?
Orden de Mekara - Mekarano(s)?
Sheaim - ? - ?
Sidar - ? - sidar(es)?
Svartalfar - Elfos negros - ?
Vástagos de Patria - vástago(s)

A ver qué os parece, ir rellenando/corrigiendo lo que veáis
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer03 May 2013, 03:47

:) :p :roll1: ;)
Última edición por HUNK el 17 Dic 2013, 23:40, editado 1 vez en total
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer03 May 2013, 11:52

Yo opino que los nombres propios se dejen tal cual. Todos. No cambiar ni civs ni ciudades ni nombres de personajes, ni nada de nada.

Adjetivos- mis sugerencías:

Archos: Archosianos.

Elfos buenos- Elfos /del verano/ (o sinonimo de verano, veraniego NO)
Elfos malos- Elfos /del invierno/ (idem, prohibido "invernal")

Lanun- Lanum, Laní (fijarse en las formas S/P del latín)

Clan ascuas: orco simplemente, o goblinoide. O "clanes": <Vienen los orcos!> , <Vienen los clanes!>

Aunque en general creo que usar el nombre propio como adjetivo queda bien. Un Ljosalfar, un Svatalfar, un Archos(iano), un pirata Lanun...

Edit: un apunte, Scions of Patria no se quien lo ha traducido, pero vastagos queda de pena, dejadlo en "hijos" o "herederos", recuerdo que no todo debe ser una traduccíon literal del ingles, los diccionarios tambien pueden ser muy limitados. Hay que usar el sentido comun más literario para estas cosas.
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer03 May 2013, 13:21

Yo entiendo que a ti te guste mas como suene en inglés, pero hay que entender que hay gente que si no lo traduces no entiende la gracia de esos nombres...

Te voy a poner un ejemplo, el del líder de los balserpahs "Weevil, Pickle and Hyde". Si lo ves en inglés, no le ves la gracia del nombre de ese líder, pero si ves "Gorgojo, Pepinillo y Hyde", sí que te puedes imaginar una aberración graciosa, un guiño al humor de esta civilización. Sé que monozulu no estará de acuerdo conmigo, porque leí su discusión con maska en apolyton, pero hay que entender que no todo el mundo sabe en inglés. Por eso estamos traduciéndolo!!! ;)

Elfos de verano/invierno? De donde sacas eso?
Lanun no es latín, es malayo...

Lo de los vástagos de patria, fue maska... Vástago en sí mismo, significa persona descendiente de otra, no lo veo tan mal.

Sí lo de mazatl tampoco entiendo muy bien qué tiene que ver con los ciervos. Supongo que porque los nahuatl vivían en selvas y pantanos como los hombres lagartos...
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer03 May 2013, 15:01

Bueno, es que la mayoria de palabras que decís no son del inglés, son terminos que pasan bien en ingles y español si no se traducen (porque son de otras lenguas). Es que no hay porqué traducirlas, son nombres propios...

El lider ese de los Balseraph se puede dejar tal cual, es un nombre. Si viene un inglés llamado Charles a tu casa, no le vas a llamar Carlos ¿no? Al doctor Jeckyl/Hyde, no le vas a llamar dc Jeckyl y Mister Pellejo, o ¿si? (Hide/Hyde). Pero es que Hyde es un nombre/apellido. No hay porque traducirlo. Weevil, Pickle y Hyde, y yasta! Yo te pongo otro ejemplo de traducción que quedó como el culete:
Huey, Dewey and Louie, también llamados respectivamente Hugo, Paco y Luis en México, Juanito, Jorgito y Jaimito en España y en Argentina Huguito, Dieguito y Luisito


Elfos de Verano/invierno, por su Lore. Son las cortes del Invierno y del Verano, más ligadas a la tradición Europea que a Warhammer o Lodoss War :P Si lees un poco sobre historia de los mitos élficos... Verás que el sentido que quisieron darle a esas dos razas era el de las cortes, no las de adoradores del bien o del mal. Y la misma historia de esas civs dice que antes eran una, que alternaban el poder segun las estaciones, pero cuando Mulcarn se apoderó del clima... los Svaltarfal se pensaron que tenian derecho a gobernar siempre y hubo palos.

Lanun no es latín, me referia a la nomenclatura singular/plurar del latín, Lanum/Lani o algo así. Por si quereis usarla en los adjetivos. De nuevo, ¿para que ser estrictos? es un mod fantastico que reinventa todo según la necesidad.

Los Vastagos de Patria queda malsonante cuando hay vampiros por medio. Hijos o Herederos queda más acorde con su lore de civ que intenta restaurar un imperio antiguo. Los Calabim al estar sacados de Vampiro y otras fuentes usan tambien la palabra Vastago en algunos textos, creo recordar. Los Scions son inmortales, los Calabim son Vampiros. Los Dtesh, muertos vivientes. Es por darle distinción.
scion del diccionario Collins:
1 child, descendant, heir, offspring, successor

Hijo, descendiente, heredero, progenie, sucesor


Y los Mazatl pues otro término convertido en nombre propio de una raza, no hay porque traducirlo. Tiene un toque cultural, y eso es bueno. ¿Para que traducirlo por "ciervos"?
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer03 May 2013, 15:27

No soy de tu opinión, dejarlo en inglés es quitarle la gracia a los que no entienden el inglés. Tú lo entiendes, por eso lo ves mejor en inglés. ¿Cómo se llama un sitio, Niagara's Fall o Cataratas del Niágara? ¿New York o Nueva York? Creo que hay tratar en lo posible de facilitar la compresión del juego, tanto de los líderes, civs, ciudades, etc... Ese líder, si lo dejas en inglés, solo le ven la gracia los que entienda el inglés...

Vástago mal sonante? Pues me suena mejor como vástago que como hijos de la patria o descendientes de la patria... Es que vástago yo sigo pensando como sinónimo de eso, mientras que tú lo ves como inmortal o yo que sé :lol:
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer03 May 2013, 16:08

A ver Rual, yo ni he dicho que me gustara más, ni que le quitase la gracia. Esas frases no se de donde las has sacado.

Se puede traducir Falls o New, eso es facil, pero Niagara es Niagara y York es York ( como tantas ciudades de USA son versiones New de ciudades del viejo continente). Pero la cuestión sobre el juego es si traducir nombres propios o no.

Y sigamos: Equivalencias.

-Niagara´s Falls se puede traducir como se traduce La prision del Odio, es un lugar natural.

-New York se traduce, como se puede traducir Cervedes (si tienes cojones) pero son ciudades, puedes llamarla New o Nueva, como más te guste.

-Ljosalfar, traducelo venga.

-Archos, traducelo.

-Faeryl Viconia, ¿de nuevo pensamos que si no se traduce estamos dificultando el juego a los que no saben inglés? Vale, pues traducelo.

Podría pasarme todo el dia discutiendo sobre esto contigo... pero creo que el mensaje que quiero dar está claro si es que hay buen entendedor...

-El lider Balseraph, traducelo si tanto crees que importa. Una traducción a Hyde podría ser pellejudo, si te empecinas en ello.

Y sobre Scions of Patria, has malinterpretado lo de Patria, que no es la patria, sino un imperio antiguo que se llamaba Patria. Nombre propio, por tanto Herederos de Patria no suena tan mal. Vastagos no es malsonante, solo que me parece que pisa la terminologia de los Calabim. Los Scions son una especie de muertos vivientes, pero no son los tipicos putrefactos o huesudos, no necesitan comer, no envejecen, son Inmortales o Eternos. Cuestión de Lore.
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer03 May 2013, 16:51

Como bien has apuntado Rual yo estoy con Phoebus, no me gusta traducir los nombres propios, además es que es eso, nombres propios, no interfieren en nada para comprender la trama o la historia, si quieres saber realmente porque los Scions son los vástagos o herederos de Patria pues te vas a la civilopedia y te miras de donde procede su nombre y su historia.
Otra cosa son los sitios únicos o naturales, eso si están traducidos para mejor comprensión, el estanque de lágrimas, el espejo del cielo, la torre de los ojos...lo que no puedes hacer, desde mi punto de vista, es querer traducir latinismos, anglicismos, 'hebreismos' o lo que sea, es como querer traducir 'a priori', 'casus belli', 'corner', 'stock'...que se puede, claro, afortunadamente el castellano es rico en palabras, pero es mejor conservar su forma original.

Respecto a los gentilicios opino como Hunk, yo no cambiaría casi ninguno, así tendríamos un ejercito Archos, una armada Lanun, un gobernante Elohim o un par de mercaderes Luchuirp, y se podría decir perfectamente ¡que vienen los Clan de las Ascuas!.

Además ya te dije lo de los elfos Rual, son elfos de la luz porque su corte era en verano y elfos oscuros porque gobernaban en invierno, como muy bien lo ha explicado Phoebus.
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer03 May 2013, 17:28

Yo es que todo lo que sea de evitar anglicismos, hay que evitarlos, sea aquí o donde sea. Está claro, que lo que no se puede traducir, no se traduce. Pero por lo que estoy viendo, es que parece que mole más que esté en inglés aunque no sepamos que significa, a que este traducido y enterarnos de la gracia...

Yo solo quería que se identificara mejor ciertas civs y ciertos líderes, por eso este debate.

Lo de los vástagos, ya sé lo de Patria. Pero si se pone hijos o descendientes, sí que suena como descendientes de la, y no de... Al menos a mi parecer. Es una confusión con las palabras...

"Que vienen los clan ascuas".... Pues a mi me suena como el culo. los del clan aun. El del clan todavía...
Catapulta elohim.... Elohim es el plural de la palabra El en hebreo. Ejército archos no lo veo tampoco, sí archosiano como decían antes...
Creo que se necesitan un singular, un plural y un femenino, pero dependiendo de la palabra puede que no haga falta ésta última.
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer03 May 2013, 17:48

Bueno, pero pregunto ¿que es lo que quereis cambiar que ha impulsado este debate?

Y quedate con este punto: Herederos del Imperio Romano; Herederos de Roma; Herederos de Patria. Herederos de España. No queda mal, ¿no?

Gentilicios:

Archosiano/s.
Patriano/s (a menos que quieras llamarlos Vastaganos)
Lanita/s (XD); Laniano/s; Lanum/Lani (en plan latín)
Austrin/s, Austriano/s.
Clanes: Pues orcos. Y punto. Son salvajes, no necesitan de los refinamientos de las razas civilizadas. O decir "de la nación de los clanes" o "de los clanes" o "del clan"
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer03 May 2013, 18:04

Ah bueno, sí, una cosilla. Cuanto antes decidamos como traducir Scions, antes puedo seguir traduciendo el CIV4GameText_Scions :lol:

Yo opto por Herederos de Patria.
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer03 May 2013, 20:23

El debate era la traducción o no de las civs y de líderes de difícil entendimiento sobre todo. Y sobre un adjetivo/gentilicio para poner cuando salieran eventos que afectaran a ciudades o unidades.

Yo es que sigo viendo herederos y vástagos como sinónimos. Me suenan igual. El problema para mi es Patria, que en español tiene otra connotación aparte del reino. Y como bien apuntas, el adjetivo/gentilicio debe ser patriano... (había puesto vástago antes)
Mi voto, para evitar confusión con la patria, sigue siendo para Vástagos de Patria.

Los demás que pones lo veo bien, excepto el de lanun. Creo que queda mejor lanú, que latinizarlo...

Si queréis puedo abrir hilos con todos los nombres propios por categorías y llevarlos a debate :lol:
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer03 May 2013, 20:37

:) :p :roll1: ;)
Última edición por HUNK el 17 Dic 2013, 23:41, editado 1 vez en total
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer03 May 2013, 22:16

Por esa regla de tres a los ingleses, les llamamos england, great britain o united kingdom... Quienes somos nosotros para traducir nombres propios...
O seguir llamando a Charlemagne a Carlomagno... Friedrich I Barbarossa, Julius Caesar, Richard Lionheart etc... :angle:

Iberia era en griego, Spania era en fenicio, creo.
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer04 May 2013, 01:33

Que degenerado soy, respondiendo a las 2...

Pues lo de Patria se soluciona poniendole un acento. En vez de PAtria, digamos Patría. ¿Y de todas formas que más da? Nadie va a tachar a los creadores del Mod de fachas. Lo de Patria habria que investigar de donde la sacaron, porque no es una palabra inglesa y seguro que se pronuncia como yo digo.
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer04 May 2013, 15:04

Yo creo que se debe pronunciar pat-ria en inglés, pero como tú dices a saber... Y a saber como poner eso en español... :lol:

Comparados y por desgracia ninguno completo:
36. CIV4GameText_Jotnar
38. CIV4GameText_Kahdi
46. CIV4GameText_Mazatl
47. CIV4GameText_Mechanos

Ya solo quedan el gordo y los de los módulos por comparar...

Edito:

Ya termino los de los módulos también :D
Comparados y completos:
84. BCoC_CIV4GameText
87. HAMSTER_CIV4GameText
88. MoreEvents_CIV4GameText

Comparados e incompletos:
86. Dural_CIV4GameText_Dural

Incompletos por no tener con qué comparar:
85. BD_CIV4GameText_BlackDuke

Eliminado de la lista por inactivo:
89. CIV4GameText_Frozen
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer05 May 2013, 04:56

:) :p :roll1: ;)
Última edición por HUNK el 17 Dic 2013, 23:42, editado 1 vez en total
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer05 May 2013, 17:38

Bueno pichurrines, como soy yo quien traduce el text de Scion, a partir de hoy son los Herederos del Imperio Sith. Ahí lo llevais. :grindance:
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer05 May 2013, 18:26

A tomar por saco!!! :lol:
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Re: Traducción de la versión 1.4X de RIFE

Mensaje sin leer05 May 2013, 19:12

Por los derechos que me confiere este ladrillo
<Spanish>[LINK=LEADER_RISEN_EMPEROR]Part 1: In a Bright Land[\LINK][NEWLINE]Part 2: In a Bright Land[NEWLINE][LINK=LEADER_ALEXI]Part 3: In a Bright Land[\LINK][NEWLINE][LINK=BUILDING_CATHEDRAL_OF_REBIRTH]Part 4: In a Bright Land[\LINK][NEWLINE] In a bright land, in a white city, in a dark room a great emperor sits on his gold throne, plotting. He can feel his adopted people, alive in any significant sense, thriving and free on the face of Erebus. The barbarians to the south and east would fall soon enough, and emissaries were on their way from the "nations" to the north. They would be dealt with. And then west, to the sea, and [BOLD]through[\BOLD] the Sidar. Fools.
The silent ones thought they revered Arawn. All they really worship is their idea of that dark god. Not only is he different from what they imagine, he might be more different than they can imagine. God of the Underworld, yes, but only warden of the Dreamlands. What is a god who cedes power and authority at every chance? Who's own chosen realm is a riot of freedom, rotting around him? Life, and Death. Absolute freedom and complete confinement. God of beginnings and endings. Neither light nor dark. The Gray One.
He remembered the passage of that oppressive aura, and pressing himself tight against the dark stone. Fear spikes through him and he shifts on his throne. His bodyguards, circling the chamber, stir in turn, every woman's weapon glinting red and silver.
The Sidar were right about his color, at least. Brighter than the night, but infinitely deeper. Gray. The emperor shudders, as if bitten by the cold he can never feel. The Hidden Queen had her secrets, but they could be revealed. The Gray One might be unknowable.
[ITALICS]"I know who you are, though you do not."[\ITALICS]
Her. How could she be his spawn? Sure compassion... and her brother raging anger. Maybe the twins were just the knowable portions of the God, exiled into the deciphered world.
He knew his thoughts went in circles. They always did when he thought of his most successful mission. His Lord had never cloaked him better. Yet it hadn't been enough. Thinking was not the way through. The eyes of memory can never see aright in the dreamlands, only the eyes of dreams.

Lights scattered over her black mantle like the stars, and following her through the twisting passages was like spinning up into a night sky that had suddenly abandoned Erebus for the void. Disoriented and lost beyond recovery should she betray him, Rahserat, the fallen Angel of Good Intentions, could only endure as the Hidden Queen guided him down the paths only she knew.
Finally she halted by a doorway formed of three large bluestones, the horizontal one marked with an eye and a hand. "This is the one," she whispered. "Give me the password."
"My Lord bade me tell you only after I stood safe and free within the Underworld."
"This is the one. The Death God will know if I enter his realm. Give me the password."
"I'm sorry, my lady, but I carry my Lord's trust."
"Don't mock me, Rahserat."
"Never. But I have been given this," Rahserat produced a small yellow vial. "I will destroy it when I stand in Arawn's kingdom. The knowledge you want to be released to you then."
"So." Her whisper was so soft he had to lean forward to catch her words. "And if you do not I will consider your Lord, and you, to have betrayed me."
The angel said nothing. He'd been warned against speaking to her more than was absolutely necessary. He merely bowed. She hissed, and gestured at the doorway. He stepped through it.

After that it was hard to put things in chronological order. Later he wondered if his own realm drove the Death God insane. Where a human found infinite freedom, bounded only by his own mind and preconceptions, what would the unbounded mind of a god find? It was hard enough being an angel.
But he did his master's bidding, working for the downfall of the One and a better world beyond.
First he used the vial. Then, cloaked as one of the angels appropriate to this place, Rahserat moved through the dreamlands. He persuaded, he tempted, he cajoled. He ministered to the souls, always playing off their better nature and always guiding them back toward ambition. This kingdom of the most uncaring god was naturally a place of stillness, where the unguided dead lost themselves. And though he did not specifically direct their re-awakened ambitions - that could too easily invite scrutiny - he knew where striving would necessarily lead them: The new center of the dreamlands, the anti-deity Laroth. That Spirit master collected the newly aware dead into an army. An army to challenge the reigning Death God. Even if Laroth was doomed, his plotting weakened Arawn's hold over the underworld and especially his angels. If the grandiose plan succeeded Rahserat didn't know if Laroth would be any better an ally for his Lord than the Hidden Queen. But it would remove a god who stood with the One.
Rahserat avoided the Forsaken Palace, Arawn's seldom-occupied center of power. Yet as he moved among that god's angels some show of participating in their increasingly disorganized and apathetically pursued work had to be maintained. Thus at times he walked the basalt and chalk halls, trapped for days, sometimes longer, in elaborate games of etiquette and influence. The dead-eyed black-and-white patterned angels that formed the palace guard and inner-administration, called phantoms, were unwaveringly loyal to the Grey One. Every other angel was suspect. Rahserat had to play a careful game both with those of certain loyalty and with those who might be Laroth's minions. But his Lord's cloak, his assumed identity, always held. Or, really, lack of identity. He started thinking of himself as the Other Angel. Never Rahserat. Never the angel he spoke to, or one that angel had just seen or spoken with. Always someone else. The Other Angel.
Even when he escaped the Palace a feeling of self-alienation didn't leave him. Mirrors began haunting him. Usually empty, but sometimes they showed Laroth. Even Basium, whose thundering could sometimes be heard throughout the underworld, at least by an angel, would be clever enough to understand. What did Rahserat do so differently from Laroth? Both twisted the spirit or soul out of true, both always using something within the spirit or soul to do so. Laroth did so for personal gain, while Rahserat helped topple empires for his Lord, and thus for all of creation. But still the mirrors haunted. Rather than spinning a dream he could inhabit Rahserat felt he was unraveling himself, weaving a new Rahserat. One who took souls supposedly safe within the underworld and drove them on. Hell, the great machine that was Agares' greatest triumph, now reached here. Thanks to Rahserat. It was better than utter destruction, but the world would pay a great price to withstand the One.

Even with angelic memory he couldn't know when it happened, on which sortie into the Palace it occurred. But while transversing a black stone gallery above the entrance hall Rahserat felt the arrival of the Death God. There was a pull, or a calling. Maybe it was what mortality felt like? But it was irresistible, and all eyes went to the Twilight Portal.
A guard of phantoms assembled along the wide, descending stairway from the great doors. Their black and white ribbons hung limp, stirring only when they turned, as one, to face the Portal. Two were already by the doors and pulling on the great rings, swinging wide the doors and revealing the Grey One.
Stern and aloof, he loomed in the open doorway like a thundercloud. Fine clothes, with both tunic and pants of a rich, thick cloth. But everything only in shades of grey. Pale silver from the lining and jet rings on the hands were the only adornments. And, like a cloud, he dimmed light in his presence. The phantoms at the doors prostrated themselves. Uncaring, the Death God passed them and descended the stairway. Each phantom going to one knee as he strode by. A wave of ribbons in absolute hues fooled the eye, blending and seeming still even as they rippled with the sudden motion. So flanked by motionless movement, by black and white mixed to grey, by the bowed heads of servants utterly loyal and completely unacknowledged, Arawn entered his palace.
Rahserat should have fled when he first felt the god. He had no wish to test his masks against the Grey One himself. But Arawn could never be avoided indefinitely. And Arawn was already walking up the gallery.
The illicit angel pressed himself into an alcove carved directly from the basalt. Fighting an urge to run Rahserat went to his knees, bowing toward the walkway, and then went still. The footsteps of the Death God and his retinue were the only sounds, and they were coming closer. Then they were before him, and died away. Hearing nothing, knowing Arawn stood before him, Rahserat looked up.
[ITALICS]"Who are [BOLD]you?[\BOLD]"[\ITALICS]
Suddenly unable to see, the god's demand hit Rahserat like a hammer blow. Was this how Iaegus fell? The angel felt like he might be crushed, caught between the god's pull and the need to escape. He choked back a damning response and concentrated on his Lord's precept.
When Arawn turned his head Rahserat could see again. The god spoke to someone beside him.
[ITALICS]"It hardly matters. Give him to your brother. Whatever's necessary should be done."[\ITALICS]
"Yes, Arawn. I will see to what's needed."
The god walked on, leaving Rahserat with an angel of female aspect. Pale, with long hair utterly black, and wearing pure white. She looked after the god until that one, never glancing back or even to the side, had turned a corner. Then she beckoned Rahserat with a gesture. "Stand."
No, she wasn't an angel. She possessed too strong an aura. An archangel.
A pair of phantoms waited at her side, one with a spear and one with chains. "You may go. This one is no threat to me. You," she gestured to Rahserat again. "You will come with me."
The phantoms followed their god, and Gyra suddenly took Rahserat's face in her hands, seizing him with her eyes. "I will not give you to my brother. I will not even see you driven from this place. For you have work to do."
Her eyes blazed, lit by something Rahserat thought he'd seen before, but had long since forgotten. "You see, little angel, [ITALICS]I know who you are, though you do not."[\ITALICS]

Gyra took him from the Forsaken Palace and to her own places on the edge of the underworld. She showed him many things. Though it was properly in the keeping of her brother, she showed him an unguarded and secret way into Erebus: The Ivory Gate. She showed him better ways to bend others to his will. She could wield compassion like a knife, a knife she gave to him. She took him into her home and introduced him to her daughter, and he though she said nothing he thought he saw a father beyond the daughter: A one-handed man with stars for eyes.
And never did she remonstrate with him for his deceptions, for sending more souls on to fallen Spirit master, one who he knew she worked to stop. All of this surprised him. Especially the daughter, Korinna. But nothing shocked him like the false Laroth.
They stood on a cliff somehow high above the dreamlands. "Arawn made this place, to more easily survey his domain. My brother cares for other things and never came here, and Arawn comes here seldom now. But still, we shouldn't linger. I have something to show you, then a place for us to go. Come and see."
He stepped to the edge and looked where she pointed. "There," she said. "Use your eyes, angel, and look upon the false new kingdom!"
It was subtle, but a part of the dreamland, the inhabited underworld, seemed organized. It flowed like the rest, but some dreams stayed apart, mixing only among each other. Reading the flow for pattern, Rahserat looked for that pattern's source. There – a center. A huge hall, like an ivory vault. Mortals of all sorts at its walls and in the center a man with a mirrored crown. The would-be god, Laroth.
Gyra touched his shoulder and Rahserat's gaze was torn from the distance. Then the archangel's pointing finger commanded his attention in a new direction. There he spied another seed of order within the dreamland's chaos. Another pattern. This one was smaller, and even more subtle. Furtive might have been a better word. At its center another hall, empty this time. But there was another throne. And on this throne..."
"You look upon the new false kingdom, Rahserat. Now: Come and see."
Gyra took Rahserat's hand, effortlessly lifting him with her as she rose above the cliff. Then, moving them in her own manner across the dreamland, Rahserat suddenly stood before the second throne. And the second Laroth.
The features were the same, and the crown. But rather than empty pits a cloth band of arterial red covered the eyes.
Rahserat turned his puzzled face toward the archangel. "Another Laroth?"
Gyra nodded. "A false one. Most of the souls you stir come to him. Especially the Patrians. Pelemoc, for example, is already here."
"But who is he?"
"He is what the mirrors show you. Yourself. Even angels build from dreams here. That's why Arawn has taken them from the angels at the palace. And maybe why..." She shook her head, midnight tresses covering her face for a moment, clearly changing her mind about what she'd been about to say. Continuing, she said "And this is your dream. Or nightmare, I don't know. But this is what you thought you might be. Just like Laroth, but of course you'd rather not just feed his power. Here is your own power base. Souls have been gathering here just as they have around Laroth's throne. But the false Laroth, unlike the other, is [ITALICS]completely[\ITALICS] your creature. He holds the souls here in trust. He will commend them to you, to do with as you will. Let them join Laroth, or swear to your god. Or you may keep them for yourself."
"This is an extravagant power you let him... let me possess. Even if it's far less than Laroth's. You oppose him, why do you aid me?"
"I told you, angel, I know who you are."

She refused to explain what she meant, as always, but made Rahserat and herself visible, then introduced him to the false Laroth. The Other Angel. Just as she'd said, the dream-formed Laroth accepted Rahserat as his Lord without the slightest hesitation. He obeyed Rahserat in everything. Laroth summoned some of the lords of men he'd already gathered, introducing Rahserat as their Emperor. Pelemoc indeed was among them, as was Melante. More, the false Laroth told him, would be with him soon. And there were.
The false Laroth could do the work he'd been sent for, and better. He suspected Gyra had a hand in his formation, but that was another subject on which she would not comment. Eventually Rahserat realized he wasn't needed, and should leave. Esus might not want the souls to go to the real Laroth if there were other options. And, if nothing else, they could be sold or traded to the hopeful usurper. His Lord knew the price of everything. Rahserat bade the false Laroth to send him a portion of the souls he snared. His Lord might find an immediate use for them, and they'd act as proof.
His Lord was not trusting.
Furthermore, Gyra offered him a secret way out of the underworld. The ways of the Hidden Queen were almost impossible to find, and dangerous even then. With his mission fulfilled Rahserat had planned seeking passage from Basium. One way or another. But that choleric archangel might see past his masks just as Arawn had. Gyra's charge was entrance to the underworld, but she knew of a few ways out. The Ivory Gate was one. Finally, most importantly, she had a favor to ask of him.
"I want you to foster my daughter."
Rahserat was sure he'd come to understand mortals far more since he'd arrived in the underworld. He'd had to act more furtively than ever before. He'd learned fear. He'd been discovered by one who stood to him as he stood to mortals. He'd learned defeat. And he, far older than most mortals could even comprehend, had been subjected to one surprise after another. This was another.
"You want me to take Korinna?"
"Yes. She can't stay here. Despite my efforts she cannot... grow here. Erebus would be better for her. And she can open the Ivory Gate for you. She will go ahead, and is mortal enough to find it from the other side. It's the sure way."</Spanish>
</TEXT>
, ¡he dicho!

( y eso es uno entre varios, y llevo solo un tercio del texto...)
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